By on Dec 23, 2021
Marketing agencies! You do NOT want to miss the insanely innovative and effective advice on building sales funnels that produce in Episode 31 of The Marketing Umbrella Podcast!
Daniel Levis has created unique systems to create an inbound sales funnel that can positively alter a business!
Daniel’s brilliant marketing strategies and copywriting services help both large direct marketers as well as hundreds of home-based entrepreneurs use the Internet to sell more effectively.
He spearheads the development of the Science of Client-Getting suite of products — the Net’s premiere list-building and monetization utility.
The transcript of this podcast is below. You can also
Itamar Shafir: Welcome to The Marketing Umbrella Podcast, where we talk with successful marketing experts about ways to build and grow a digital marketing agency.
My guest today is a brilliant marketing strategist and copywriter expert, who helped both large direct marketers as well as hundreds of home-based entrepreneurs to use the internet to sell more effectively. He worked with the likes of Mark Victor Hanson, Robert Allen, Yannick Silver and Dan Kennedy, to name a few. He’s the author of the book The Email Alchemist and the founder of Levis International Marketing. I’m excited to say hello to Mr. Daniel Levis.
Daniel Levis: Hey, how’s it going?
Itamar Shafir: I’m so excited to have you here, Daniel. You are a master copywriter. Copywriting is key. I don’t know if I heard you say it, I think on another podcast, where somebody asked you about copywriting and you say, “Look, it’s communication.” Whether you do it via email or other forms, you need to know the right things to say to get the attention and the conversion that you need. Obviously, it’s a very powerful tool.
But, before we jump into the many questions that I have for you to help our listeners grow their agency, why don’t you tell them a little bit about your background, how you got into this?
Daniel Levis: Yeah, sure. Well, I started writing copy way back in, oh I guess it would be the early 2000s, when direct mail was still a thing. That’s how I got involved with some of these masters of direct response. I was personally mentored by Clayton Makepeace, no longer with us unfortunately, but one of the greatest direct mail copywriters who ever lived, doing a lot of magalogues and things like that.
And then, I got into lead generation using direct mail as lead generation, and then naturally onto the internet lead generation. Got heavily involved in email marketing, hence the book The Email Alchemist. But, what I’ve been doing for the last, I don’t know, three, four years is something called the Science of Client-Getting, so that’s my new brand.
What we do at the Science of Client-Getting is we help coaches, consultants, advisors, agencies, service pros and solution providers to build automated client-getting and client-serving systems that empower you to grow and scale your business online. Those systems consist of offer systems, how to deliver your expertise in a way that’s highly leveraged and profitable, and is not contingent on you being essential to the business. Lead generation systems that are scalable and that do not depend on manual prospecting. Traffic systems that fuel profitable growth. Conversion systems that leverage a realtime sales conversation at the last mile. And, follow-up systems that maximize ROI and longterm client value.
Itamar Shafir: So, everything you just said is applicable to this show actually, and every point. Okay, so how much emphasis, because I did want to ask you about The Email Alchemist as well … How much emphasis do you still find in email, specifically in email prospecting, for small agencies or for their clients? How much is that still important?
Daniel Levis: That’s not a thing I recommend. You’re talking about cold emailing prospects saying, “Hey, we do this and can you hire me?”
Itamar Shafir: Well, maybe a little bit more sophisticated but basically, yes.
Daniel Levis: No, I don’t recommend that. Email is the glue that ties your client-getting machine together but it’s not something you sit there, manually sending emails to people. No, it’s automated, it’s auto responders, it’s following up, it’s building relationships one-to-many, in a one-to-one way that’s very personal and intimate. But, sending cold emails out, “Hey, can you hire me to do this or that,” forget it.
Itamar Shafir: Yeah. Yeah. What do you recommend today? Obviously, you’re looking at lead gen in a different way. You’re saying, “Okay, don’t do cold emails,” for example. What is hot today? What should people do to start bringing in those leads? Before we even talk about the automated funnels that follow-up.
Daniel Levis: Right. Well, there’s two types of lead generation. There’s the outbound kind, where you look desperate, you’re obviously not an authority or you wouldn’t be sitting there. You wouldn’t have time to send them emails because you’d be busy work with clients, so that’s the implicit subtext, the story that goes around when you do that outbound. Any kind of outbound. Pick up the phone, do anything like that. Do anything outbound and you’ve got no authority.
Inbound, however, you’ve got tons of authority. So specifically, how do you do that? Well, there are basically two ways to do it. There’s you can use other people’s lists or other people’s money to pull prospects towards you.
As an expert, as an advisor, as an agency, your phone, your phone email account, your social media accounts, they only work one way, incoming. The best way to do that right now, we’re using something called … It’s basically taking advantage of artificial intelligence and we call it a choose your own adventure funnel. Or, an anti-funnel is another way to look at it. You can do it with paid advertising, you can do it with joint ventures with other people who have complimentary prospect and client lists.
So what you’re doing is you’re basically advertising some sort of widget, some sort of lead generation magnet, so problem solving information that’s going to be attractive and helpful to your target. They come to your website, they request it and it’s like a Trojan horse that goes in there, like a sales letter in disguise, that gets them to book a call with you where you then enroll them in your program.
Itamar Shafir: Okay, cool. What do you feel about the notion in sales that maybe contradicts a little bit long funnels, where the minute somebody shows interest, they need to get on a call with the salesperson? Or, does your process is more okay, let me beg the person until they reach some sort of scoring and, only then do I really want them on the phone?
Daniel Levis: Yeah.
Itamar Shafir: How do you view that?
Daniel Levis: I do that in 15 minutes. So from the time they see the ad until the time they’ve qualified themselves by answering 15 questions, it’s 15 minutes.
Itamar Shafir: And then, they need to get on a call with the rep?
Daniel Levis: Then, they need to book a call with the rep.
Itamar Shafir: Book a call, yeah.
Daniel Levis: That call would occur tomorrow or the day after that.
Itamar Shafir: But, not much longer, right?
Daniel Levis: No.
Itamar Shafir: Because we know the time to call is very problematic, right?
Daniel Levis: Yeah. Yeah. The problem is, you get too many leads, and they do end up going out too far. Then, you’ve got another problem, you need another salesperson.
Itamar Shafir: Right. Is that the only fix? Right, that’s the only fix. Or, a more qualifying process? Sometimes, some people need …
Daniel Levis: Yeah, you could do that. But, this system qualifies them so well that nobody’s going to book a call on your calendar unless they’re red hot and ready, and super qualified.
Itamar Shafir: Okay.
Daniel Levis: You can throw some of them away if you want, and we do. But generally, not that many.
Itamar Shafir: What do you do about show up rates? Because I know that’s a disease, 50% show up.
Daniel Levis: It’s not a disease when you do it this way. We get probably 75%, 80% show up. Why? Because they’re involved, they’re interacting.
I wish I had the URL to give you, maybe I can give it to you after the podcast and you can share it somewhere. But, essentially what it is, is people are coming to this web page and they’re watching a video. And, within 30 seconds of watching that video, you ask them a question, they answer the question. They watch another couple of minutes, where you’re talking about their answer to that question. Then, you ask them another question. They answer the question and it keeps going like this, four levels deep.
Itamar Shafir: I love it! Okay.
Daniel Levis: So by the time that they’re four levels deep, they’re mesmerized because you’re basically telling them a story that is essentially their story.
Itamar Shafir: I know, probably, a few people right now say, “Okay, Daniel, I’m a good marketer. But, I don’t know if I’m very charismatic in front of a video, I don’t know if that’s my thing. What should I do?”
Daniel Levis: Well, it doesn’t have to be a talking head video, it could be a VCL, the bouncing ball text.
Itamar Shafir: Oh, okay.
Daniel Levis: It could be a PowerPoint video, where you’re talking to a PowerPoint. It doesn’t have to be an on camera video.
Itamar Shafir: So you’re saying it needs to go with that specific person’s personality and how they feel comfortable doing that?
Daniel Levis: Yeah. If you’re not that good at it, I would say you should start working on it. Maybe you don’t have to worry about what you look like or whether you’re charismatic in front of a camera, but you should certainly become good at speaking. Copy is one thing, but delivery of the copy is another one and anybody can learn to be competent at that. And then, if you use the bouncing ball VCL script, half the battle’s right there. You don’t have to be on the camera, but you do need to be able to deliver your copy effectively. Or, if you’re not good at doing your copy effectively, chances are you’re not going to very good on a call, either. But, you could always get a voice over artist to do the video, if you really wanted to.
Itamar Shafir: Right. And, you help people build that funnel, right?
Daniel Levis: Right.
Itamar Shafir: In your business. When you help people build that funnel, how important is it that the sales conversation follows the same narrative as the video and the lead magnet? Or, are there three separate entities?
Daniel Levis: Oh, it’s very important. It’s very important. You have a methodology, as an agency, or as an advisor, or as a subject matter expert. You have a methodology so part of that video, part of that choose your own adventure thing is all about what’s different, what’s special about your methodology. And, you’re going to be perceived as special, different, better anyway because you’re talking about what they want to talk about, that’s going to differentiate you right off the bat. But, you’re methodology is encapsulated in that lead gen magnet and you have to be consistent with that when they show up at the call.
Itamar Shafir: Would you say, for a young agency, it’s better to go niched or agnostic?
Daniel Levis: I think you can go too far when it comes to niching down. But yeah, I would say generally speaking it’s better to be niched than to be agnostic.
Itamar Shafir: So my funnel will have that niche persona, and then it will follow-up all the needs and also my branding will benefit from that.
Daniel Levis: Yeah. If you go too far, you’re going to narrow the market too much and then, you’re going to be …
Itamar Shafir: Yeah. You’re not going to have enough clients, enough potentials.
Daniel Levis: Yeah. But, if you’re too broad, that’s going to kill you because there’s nothing special about you. Especially if you don’t have any kind of track record, or notoriety, or authority otherwise.
Itamar Shafir: You’re raising another big issue that we touched on a few times in the show and I wonder what’s your take on it. Agencies getting started, or any type of business, it doesn’t really matter, don’t have a lot of social proof. Any hacks, any tips about how to make a person feel like you have some social proof even though you don’t?
Daniel Levis: Yeah, sure. One of the things that I do, and that not everybody can do … The essential structure of a CYOA video is this. You come to my page, I’m going to ask you, “What are you doing, B2B or B2C?” That’s my first question. Then I’ll say, “Okay, do you help your clients with their health, with their wealth or with their relationships?” Okay, so what is it. All right, so I talk a little bit about that. And I’ll ask them, “Where are you, are you a startup, are you this revenue, are you that revenue, where are you at?” And then, I tell them a story about one of our clients. As I’m going through that, I’m revealing what’s different, what’s special, what’s the methodology. Anybody can do that.
And then, in that final section where you’re telling the story, you don’t have to tell a story of one of your clients. You can tell just a story about somebody who used the same methodology and what were the results. What’s the before, what were the complications, what’s the after of the story. The efficacy of the method rubs off on you, from those stories.
Itamar Shafir: Very good point.
Daniel Levis: No matter what you do, somebody, somewhere has actually done your methodology because you probably borrowed it from somebody, anyway.
Itamar Shafir: Yeah. Yeah, especially if you’re starting up.
Okay. So can you allude a little bit, I know you said you can either use somebody else’s lists or you can buy traffic. When you say buy traffic, you mean Facebook advertising, Google advertising, the regular stuff. When you say borrow somebody else’s traffic, can you tell us what you mean?
Daniel Levis: Well, when I started, I didn’t have a lot of money to advertise, although I did. Because when you’re able to advertise properly, when you get a conversion quickly, it’s self-funding. That’s why we call it other people’s money.
But, I also did a lot of joint venturing. I would create a lead generation magnet that had value and that had a sale at the end of it. And, I would go to different people in my niche, which was copywriting at the time, anyway, and I would do deals with them. I’d say, “Okay, I got this thing, it converts really well. I’ll pay you so much for every sale. Why don’t you tell your list about it?” I didn’t have a list at all, in the beginning, but eventually I would get a list because every time …
Have you heard of Gary Bencivenga?
Itamar Shafir: No.
Daniel Levis: Never heard of Gary Bencivenga? Okay. He’s the God of copywriting.
Itamar Shafir: Okay.
Daniel Levis: What I did was, the first thing I did … You probably have heard of Joel Vitale?
Itamar Shafir: Yeah, I know the name.
Daniel Levis: Joel Vitale, okay. I created a book, it was basically … Have you heard of Robert Collier?
Itamar Shafir: No. You have to stop asking me, because I feel embarrassed.
Daniel Levis: Anyway, Robert Collier is a really famous guy, he’s long dead. He wrote letters, back in the 1930s or something like that. All the copywriters love this guy. He wrote a big, thick book, it’s called The Robert Collier Letter Book. Everybody’s just, “If you have read the Robert Collier Letter Book, you’re just not a copywriter.”
What I did was I annotated some of Robert Collier’s letters. In fact, 15 letters that he personally had said, “These are the best letters that I ever wrote.” I annotated those letters and I created an info product that you could buy, from my website, and at the top of the sales page there was an opt-in and you could get the first three chapters of this book.
Actually, I went to Joel Vitale, at the time he was a big shot in the copywriting world. I said to him, “Hey, look, I wrote this book about Robert Collier. I know you love Robert Collier, too. It would mean a lot to me if you could give me a testimonial, if you like it.” So he replied back within half an hour, with a testimonial. And then, I replied immediately back and I said, “Okay, well thanks very much for the testimonial. Would you like to promote this to your email list?” He had 100,000 people on his list, a lot of people that I wanted to target. “Would you like to promote this to your list for a percentage of the sale proceeds? Or, would you prefer to write a preface to the book, we’ll call it our book and I’ll give you a cut of all the affiliate sales from here to forever?”
Itamar Shafir: Nice.
Daniel Levis: He chose the latter, he wrote the foreword to the book and it became our book. What do you think that did to my credibility as a nobody?
Itamar Shafir: Wow. That spiked it, of course.
Daniel Levis: Absolutely.
Itamar Shafir: It’s amazing.
Daniel Levis: That’s what I mean by other people’s lists. And then, I just duplicated that, cookie cuttered that process.
The next thing I did was I interviewed Joe, and I interviewed John Carlton, and all these other copywriting greats and I turned it into a compilation interview thing. I got all of these copywriters to promote that product to their list, paid them a commission and grew a large email list that way.
Itamar Shafir: Amazing. And today, how much do you use that affiliation tactic versus paid media?
Daniel Levis: About, I would say, half and half.
Itamar Shafir: Half and half? Okay. We now know what happens to bring in clients, so you do certain partnerships or you just pay for traffic. Then, use a lead magnet that needs to chime with whatever you’re in expert in probably, right?
Daniel Levis: Right.
Itamar Shafir: Which leads into some sort of qualification form, that needs to be very specific. I’m dying to know what those 15 questions are, but I know we’re not going to hear them now, on the podcast. Feel free to share one.
Daniel Levis: Well, I already shared four of them.
Itamar Shafir: Oh, you shared … Right.
Daniel Levis: Are you B2B, B2C?
Itamar Shafir: Right.
Daniel Levis: Are you health, wealth, relationships? How much are you making? And then, I tell the story. And then, at the end of the story, I ask for permission to tell them about what do I have. “Would you like to know more?” They say yes, and then I tell them about the value that they will get when they come to the consultation. And then I say, “And it all begins with the information you’re going to give me right now. Let’s start with your name.”
Itamar Shafir: This is all a video that you’re talking to the camera, asking questions, and it stops?
Daniel Levis: Yeah.
Itamar Shafir: And then, they need to type the answer on the video?
Daniel Levis: Yeah.
Itamar Shafir: Or, below or something?
Daniel Levis: No, right on the video.
Itamar Shafir: Right on the video?
Daniel Levis: Yeah.
Itamar Shafir: Oh, that’s cool. Okay. And then, they book an appointment and you’re getting 75%. What do you with the people that don’t book an appointment? Do you have some sort of recycling email sequence?
Daniel Levis: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. As they’re watching the video, the moment they move their mouse away to the address bar portion of the browser, a popup comes and says, “Need better leads,” or something like that. And then, they can opt in for The Email Alchemist. The funny thing is, most of the people that book an appointment have also requested The Email Alchemist. And then, they go into a whole auto responder sequence, and other videos, and other PDFs and other stuff to draw them back to booking a call.
But, most of them book within 15 minutes.
Itamar Shafir: Do you recommend doing one funnel? Let’s say you have multiple offerings. Now, obviously as an agency, it’s a general consultation, general discovery conversation. But, sometimes maybe you really want to go, you want to grab people who are interested in PPC service, for example. Or, SEO services. So would you gear those 15 answers to focus on that, or would you keep them the same?
Daniel Levis: I find that most agencies, most experts, most coaches, consultants are trying to do too many things, they have too many offerings. I’m a big believer in one offering.
Itamar Shafir: Really? That’s interesting. I want to dig into that because that’s a little bit different than what I heard.
A person might come and say, “But, Daniel, yes I’m an expert on PPC, SEO. But, I have clients that want website setup, and they want Facebook advertising, and they want reputation management. I know that as soon as I’m going to say I’m sorry, I can’t do that, somebody else is going to do that. And then, they might take also my SEO, PPC money at the end of the day.” It’s that dilemma, right? They’re not wrong. That’s the way you hunt other clients of other agencies. We do that all the time, we “steal clients” from other agencies because we’re better.
Daniel Levis: But, that’s not scalable. When are you going to eat? When are you going to sleep? When are you going to have a life?
Itamar Shafir: Well, I have a solution for that, but I’m interviewing you now. I agree, I agree. There are solutions today, in outsourcing, to at least have a person, like the guy that you can refer to, at the minimum, that you know that you can count on to not take your clients away, or be an extra point to your client base. But, for the sake of the funnel, you’re saying keep it very focused, which is probably the right thing to do.
Now, jumping from the funnels a little bit to you, Daniel. You talked, before, about some or one of your failures and how you got over it as an entrepreneur. I think that’s also something that is key to people starting up or trying to build a small business, and running into a lot of hardships. What can you share about that? What worked, what didn’t work? When was the fall and when was the rise?
Daniel Levis: Well, I’m not sure exactly what you’re referring to, but I would say that to be an entrepreneur, it’s a constant series of failures and the odd success. If you’re afraid to try things and fail, you’re never going to be successful.
I was going to quote Gene Schwartz, but maybe you don’t know who he is, either.
Itamar Shafir: I know who he is.
Daniel Levis: Okay, good. Good. So one of the things he says, “If you’re a copywriter and you’re afraid to try crazy shit that in all likelihood is going to fail, you’re not a good copywriter.” It’s the same in business. You’ve got to be trying a lot of different stuff, knowing full well that a lot of it’s going to fail. And, just going into it with that mindset and not being upset about it. Just moving on to the next thing, until you hit a big time, because your failures are going to be small and your successes are going to be really big.
Itamar Shafir: That’s nice. What I meant was, is you wrote in an article that you remember what it felt like losing when you made a sale and it felt like a fluke or an accident.
Daniel Levis: Right, right, right.
Itamar Shafir: No, no. But, what you gave was wonderful, it’s also very important. But, I meant specific that imposter syndrome, maybe you were alluding to.
Daniel Levis: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think what I said was that I was giving myself permission to be diminished by the other person and that’s a big problem in sales. We go into the sales arena thinking that we need to prove ourselves. We have to be this dancing monkey and the prospect is in control. “Oh, I’m looking at four or five of you guys. Dance.” That’s a huge problem.
It’s always a problem when you cold email people, when you cold call people. That’s what happens and that’s naturally what happens. The dynamic is turned on its head, however, when you have them coming to you and they’re the ones raising their hand. Inbound, exactly. You don’t have that situation where you have to be the dancing monkey, and you have to prove yourself and then, you’re always wondering, “Oh, I gave that permission to diminish me.” You still have to be aware of that, you still have to have your power, but it’s a lot easier.
Itamar Shafir: Yeah. Yeah. You’re already positioned above, or at least on the same level, and not below.
Daniel Levis: Right.
Itamar Shafir: That’s an excellent point. So, jumping back into funnels from that, you also said that some people drift in their marketing to features from benefits. We, as marketers, we emphasis benefits all the time. Benefits, benefits, benefits, that’s what sells. But, it’s very hard to distill it sometimes, because many things sound the same.
I’ll take you back to the agency world, for a second. I sell SEO, you sell SEO. This guy sells SEO, this guy sells SEO. I’ll get you on the first page of Google, he’ll get you on the first page of Google.
When the service is flat, when it’s commoditized, even though that you know you’re going to do a good job, you know you’re good, how do you pour a unique selling proposition into it? Maybe besides pricing, but it’s also hard because it’s a manual service and you don’t want to go too low because then your brand suffers. Do you have any tips about how do you position something that inherently is commoditized in some way? At least, that’s how customers view it.
Daniel Levis: Right. Well, you can de-commoditize yourself with the CYOA. What kind of business are you in? Are you an ecommerce, are you on Main Street doing retail, are you a service business, maybe a lawyer or an architect, accountant? The moment they pick one of those things, then you say, “Well, here’s the thing about SEO and accounting,” and you start talking about SEO and accounting, because you know he’s a fucking accountant. You think that’s going to differentiate you?
Itamar Shafir: That’s nice, that’s good. That’s very good.
Daniel Levis: If he’s not an accountant, I don’t know, he’s an ecommerce guy so you talk about SEO and ecommerce when he clicks the button.
Itamar Shafir: Do you also provide that software that does that, that the video changes based on the answers?
Daniel Levis: No.
Itamar Shafir: Or, is it a type form thing?
Daniel Levis: Yes, it’s by type form. It’s called VideoAsk and it’s by type form.
Itamar Shafir: Awesome.
Daniel Levis: Now, I do show you how to script, and branch and create the video. But no, I don’t do software.
Itamar Shafir: Do you also do done for you? If somebody says, “Hey, help me build this. I need you to help me do the video, actually create the funnel.”
Daniel Levis: Yeah. Yeah, but I’m not cheap at all.
Itamar Shafir: I can imagine. I can imagine. Of course not. So much experience and such expertise.
The final portion of the podcast is a rapid Q&A.
Daniel Levis: Okay.
Itamar Shafir: I’m asking quick questions, I need quick answers. The questions are in no way edgy, don’t worry.
Daniel Levis: Okay.
Itamar Shafir: But, if you want to pass, just say pass.
Daniel Levis: All right.
Itamar Shafir: Did you get along with your parents growing up?
Daniel Levis: Yeah, pretty much.
Itamar Shafir: Do you have siblings?
Daniel Levis: No.
Itamar Shafir: Do you have a pet?
Daniel Levis: Yeah. Yeah, I love animals.
Itamar Shafir: Do you have kids?
Daniel Levis: Yeah.
Itamar Shafir: How old were you when your first kid was born?
Daniel Levis: Oh, God. How old am I? Early 20s.
Itamar Shafir: Early 20s? You don’t remember the actual number? [inaudible]. Don’t tell the kid.
Daniel Levis: It was a heck of a long time ago.
Itamar Shafir: When do you wake up?
Daniel Levis: Wake up? Eight o’clock.
Itamar Shafir: When do you go to bed?
Daniel Levis: 11.
Itamar Shafir: Ideal vacation?
Daniel Levis: Where there’s not a lot of people.
Itamar Shafir: Why did you moan when I asked you about vacation? It’s supposed to be ah!
Daniel Levis: Every day is like a vacation for me, that’s why.
Itamar Shafir: That’s a great answer. Are you a man of faith?
Daniel Levis: No, but yes. Yes, then no. Not in the traditional sense.
Itamar Shafir: So you believe there is more than just you, but you don’t practice specific religion?
Daniel Levis: Right.
Itamar Shafir: Oh, okay. Perfect. Excellent. Thank you very much, Daniel, for all your amazing answers. And, for building us an A to Z funnel on the show.
Daniel Levis: Cool.
Itamar Shafir: Guys, go to daniellevis.com to get more information. And also, he has a free report there called Expert Client-Getting Manifesto that you can download, that will help you chart how you can build a profitable business, even as an agency.
Daniel Levis: Yeah. Yeah. If you want to know more about the process of the Science of Client-Getting, maybe you’re an agency, maybe a solution provider or something like that, and you’re struggling with cashflow or growth and you want some help with your offer, or your lead gen, traffic, conversion, follow-up, just go to daniellevis.com. And, on the right side of the page there, you can request that free report. It’s called the Expert’s Client-Getting Manifesto, and it gives you a complete blueprint on how to build a lucrative coaching, consulting, advisory or agency business, in the digital age.
Itamar Shafir: Amazing. Amazing. So guys, go to daniellevis.com, check it out. And, Daniel, thank you so much, you’ve been wonderful.
Daniel Levis: Oh, thanks for having me.
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